Pro Soundfont //top\\ — Roland Sc88
Roland SC-88 Pro SoundFont — Review
Summary
- The SC-88 Pro SoundFont faithfully recreates the classic Roland SC-88 Pro General MIDI / GS palette: warm pianos, rich orchestral strings, realistic brass, punchy synths, and detailed drum kits. It’s aimed at composers, retro-MIDI enthusiasts, and anyone seeking that 1990s Roland hardware timbre.
Sound quality
- Positives: Instruments maintain the recognizable SC-88 Pro character—natural string ensembles, smooth electric pianos, and bright, present acoustic pianos. Percussion and drum kits are well-sampled with clear transient attack and usable velocity layering.
- Negatives: Some patches sound a bit dated or thin by modern sample-library standards (limited round-robins and shorter loop fades). Brass and solo woodwind patches can lack the breathy realism of contemporary libraries.
Instrument coverage & accuracy
- Coverage: Extensive—complete General MIDI/GS banks plus many SC-specific variations and effects (chorus, reverb, typical Roland modulation).
- Accuracy: Good mapping and program numbering for drop-in compatibility with GM/GS MIDI files; articulations and key ranges follow original hardware conventions.
Dynamics & expression
- Velocity layers are present on key patches but limited in number; expression relies heavily on onboard filters, chorus, and reverb rather than deep multisampled dynamics. Mod-wheel and CC mappings generally respond predictably for common performance controls.
Usability & compatibility
- Format: Standard SoundFont (.sf2) works across most DAWs, samplers, and lightweight players—easy to load for quick MIDI mockups.
- Preset organization mirrors SC-88 layout, simplifying use with legacy MIDI arrangements. File size is modest compared to modern sample libraries, making it CPU- and disk-friendly.
Processing & effects
- Built-in SF2 samples capture much of the onboard SC-88 Pro processing (chorus, reverb), but there’s less dedicated convolution or high-end mastering polish—external effects can significantly improve presence and depth.
Best use cases
- Retro/90s-style game music, demos, chiptune hybrids, quick orchestral mockups, MIDI playback of GS files, and projects where authenticity to the SC-88 Pro sound is desired.
- Not ideal as a primary orchestral library for high-end film scoring where deep sampling and ultra-realism are required.
Value
- Offers strong nostalgia and practical GM/GS compatibility at a low cost (and small footprint) compared with modern multisampled libraries. Good value for MIDI-centric workflows.
Verdict
- A faithful, lightweight SoundFont that captures the SC-88 Pro’s signature voice—excellent for compatibility, quick production, and retro authenticity; limited by modern sampling depth and expressive detail. Recommended for composers wanting the SC-88 Pro aesthetic or needing reliable GM/GS playback without heavy resource use.
If you want, I can:
- Provide soundfont loading instructions for a specific DAW,
- Suggest modern effect chains to enhance the patches,
- Or create a short preset list highlighting standout patches.
The Roland SC-88 Pro is widely regarded as the pinnacle of the Sound Canvas
series, serving as the definitive hardware standard for 90s video game music and MIDI composition. Because the original hardware is increasingly rare and expensive, many musicians use SoundFonts (SF2)
—digital libraries that bundle its instrument samples into a playable virtual format. Why the SC-88 Pro SoundFont is Iconic Massive Instrument Library : The original unit contains 1,117 instrument patches 45 drum kits
. A high-quality SoundFont seeks to replicate these "bread and butter" sounds, ranging from realistic pianos and strings to the distinctive "choir aahs" used in classic soundtracks. Video Game Authenticity : It was the reference module for legendary titles like The Legend of Zelda Final Fantasy
. Using its SoundFont allows modern composers to capture that specific "90s digital" warmth and texture. Standard Compatibility
: It supports General MIDI (GM) and Roland’s GS standard, making it compatible with almost any MIDI file. Top SoundFont Options & Alternatives
While professional options exist, many users turn to community-crafted versions or official software:
Roland SC-88 Pro Go to product viewer dialog for this item. is a legendary MIDI sound module from the Sound Canvas series
, widely used in 1990s game soundtracks and desktop music. Using an SC-88 Pro SoundFont (.sf2)
allows you to recreate those classic "retro" sounds digitally in modern music software. 1. Top Recommended SoundFonts
While no soundfont can perfectly replicate every hardware-based effect, these community-created files are considered the most complete: HiDef Roland SC-88Pro (stgiga)
: A massive 4GiB bank designed for high compatibility with original Japanese MIDI files and exotic patches. Available on Musical Artifacts Roland SC-88 (Mr. Sanic)
: A more compact option compiled from the official virtual engine, covering standard General MIDI (GM) sounds. DSoundFont Series: Often cited as a reliable " compatible" alternative in forums like Vogons. 2. How to Use SC-88 Pro SoundFonts
To use these files, you need a SoundFont Player (a virtual instrument that loads .sf2 files). In a DAW (FL Studio, Reaper, Ableton):
Download a free player like Sforzando or CoolSoft VirtualMIDISynth. Load the player as a VST in your DAW. Open your SC-88 Pro SoundFont within the player. For Playing Retro MIDI Files: Use foobar2000 with the MIDI Decoder component Configure the player to use the SC-88 SoundFont as its "Sound Bank". 3. The Hardware vs. Software Trade-off
HiDef (my 4GiB Roland SC-88Pro SoundFont) - Musical Artifacts
While there is no "official" Roland SC-88Pro SoundFont, several high-quality community-made versions exist that replicate the iconic 90s "Sound Canvas" aesthetic. Reviewers and users generally praise these SoundFonts for their nostalgic quality, though they note technical limitations compared to the original hardware Top Recommended SoundFonts HiDef (4GiB) by stgiga
: Widely considered one of the most comprehensive options. It includes support for XG mode and was specifically designed for high compatibility with complex Japanese MIDI files that utilize the SC-88Pro's unique features. Available on Musical Artifacts Tyroland by stgiga
: A newer project that expands support to the full Roland SC-8850 patch set while maintaining high compatibility with older SC-88Pro files. Available on ColomboGMGS2
: Frequently recommended in the MIDI community as a solid all-around General MIDI/GS soundset with the classic Roland "grit". Key Performance Insights Sound Accuracy
: Users report that high-quality rips (like the 284MB version by "ZZ Denis") capture the "dry" sounds of the unit with impressive precision. The drums and bass are often highlighted as being particularly close to the original hardware. The "Effects" Limitation
: A major drawback of using a SoundFont over real hardware is the loss of the SC-88Pro's Insertion Effects (EFX) roland sc88 pro soundfont
. SoundFonts typically provide the raw samples, but they cannot natively replicate the hardware's real-time filters, resonance, and Boss-derived distortion effects that defined the "Pro" sound. Mixing Issues : Some community reviews on
note that specific instrument volumes can be inconsistent, such as orchestral drum sets being too quiet compared to lead instruments. Software Recommendation
HiDef (my 4GiB Roland SC-88Pro SoundFont) - Musical Artifacts
Roland SC-88 Pro Soundfont represents a digital preservation of the legendary 1996 Sound Canvas hardware that defined the "sound" of 90s video games and desktop music production. Originally a $800 desktop module, it is now commonly found as a SoundFont (.sf2)
file, allowing modern musicians to use its iconic sounds in digital audio workstations (DAWs). 🎹 Historical Context & Impact
The SC-88 Pro was a breakthrough for Roland, acting as the "gold standard" for General MIDI (GM) and GS standards. It was particularly favored by Japanese game composers for iconic soundtracks in the 90s and early 2000s, including titles like Final Fantasy VII Versatility : It featured 1,117 instrument patches 42 drum kits , many derived from Roland's professional JV-1080 series. Preservation : Soundfonts like the HiDef 4GiB SC-88Pro
were created as massive labors of love to accurately recreate these sounds for modern users who lack the original hardware. 🚀 Key Features of the SC-88 Pro Sound
While modern soundfonts vary in quality, an authentic SC-88 Pro experience includes: Massive Library
: Over a thousand tones covering every genre, from lush orchestral strings to "cheesy" but classic synth leads. Effects Integration : The original hardware introduced a Boss effects processor
, adding rich reverb, chorus, and 64 unique insertion effects (like distortion or flangers) that soundfonts aim to replicate. Compatibility Maps : The SC-88 Pro soundset includes maps for the older
, making it the most "complete" version for playing back old MIDI files as they were intended to sound. 💻 Modern Alternatives
If you are looking for the "official" version rather than a community-made soundfont:
HiDef (my 4GiB Roland SC-88Pro SoundFont) - Musical Artifacts
The Roland SC-88 Pro SoundFont refers to digital emulations of the classic Roland Sound Canvas SC-88 Pro
, a hardware MIDI sound module released in 1997 that became a standard in video game music and MIDI production. Because the original hardware is vintage, modern users rely on SoundFonts ( SF2cap S cap F 2
format) to recreate its unique "Sound Canvas" character in digital audio workstations (DAWs) or MIDI players. Overview of the Roland SC-88 Pro
was a significant upgrade to the original SC-88, doubling the waveform memory to 20MB and increasing the sound set to 1,117 tones and 42 drum kits. It is highly valued for its:
Insertion Effects (EFX): The first in the series to support 64 types of insertion effects, such as distortion, rotary speaker, and wah-wah, which allowed for more complex and modern-sounding MIDI tracks.
Backwards Compatibility: It includes dedicated "maps" for the SC-55 and SC-88, ensuring that MIDI files composed for older hardware play back with the correct instruments.
Historical Impact: It was widely used by Japanese game developers (such as Falcom and ZUN) and for high-end MIDI backing tracks in karaoke rooms. The Role of SoundFonts
is a hardware "rompler," digital SoundFonts attempt to sample its internal sounds to make them playable on a PC without the physical unit. SC-88 vs SC-88 Pro in 88 Map mode? - VOGONS
The Roland SC-88 Pro remains one of the most iconic synthesizers in the history of computer music, and the transition of its unique "Sound Canvas" character into the digital SoundFont ( cap S cap F 2
) format represents a vital intersection of preservation and modern production. This essay examines the significance of the Roland SC-88 Pro, the challenges of creating accurate SoundFonts, and its enduring legacy in the digital age. The Legacy of the Sound Canvas
Released in the mid-1990s, the Roland SC-88 Pro was the pinnacle of the GS (General Standard) format. It offered high-quality tones and
drum sets, providing a lush, cinematic sound that defined the MIDI soundtracks of countless Japanese video games and PC titles. Unlike the basic General MIDI ( cap G cap M
) sounds found on standard soundcards, the SC-88 Pro featured sophisticated effects like EFX (Multi-effects), reverb, and chorus, which allowed for a degree of realism and warmth that hardware enthusiasts still covet today. The SoundFont: A Digital Bridge
As hardware synthesis moved toward software-based solutions, the SoundFont format ( cap S cap F 2
) became the primary vehicle for preserving these specific hardware timbres. A Roland SC-88 Pro SoundFont is essentially a sample-based recreation of the original hardware’s memory. Preservation Efforts : Notable community projects, such as the stgiga HiDef SoundFont
, have attempted to capture the full breadth of the module, with some banks reaching sizes up to 4 cap G cap B
to ensure every nuance of the original hardware is recorded. Accessibility
: For composers and hobbyists, these SoundFonts provide a way to achieve the "90s game sound" without the expense and space requirements of physical rack modules. Challenges of Emulation Roland SC-88 Pro SoundFont — Review Summary
Creating a "proper" SC-88 Pro SoundFont is notoriously difficult due to the complex way the original hardware handles MIDI messages. Bank Switching
: The SC-88 Pro uses complex GS bank switching to access its vast library. Many lower-quality SoundFonts only include the basic cap G cap M
bank, leading to "broken" or incorrect instrument playback in specialized MIDI files. The "Roland Sparkle"
: The SC-88 Pro is famous for its internal effects processing. A raw sample of an instrument often lacks the characteristic "warmth" or "sparkle" provided by the hardware's DAC (Digital-to-Analog Converter) and internal DSP. Accuracy vs. Legality : While official tools like the Roland Sound Canvas VA
offer perfect emulation, they are paid software. This has led to a vibrant but legally grey community of enthusiasts who "rip" samples from hardware or official VST trials to create free alternatives. Contemporary Relevance
Today, the Roland SC-88 Pro SoundFont is more than just a tool for nostalgia. It is a staple for: VGM (Video Game Music) Research
: Identifying the exact samples used in classic soundtracks. Retro Development
: Indie developers use these sounds to evoke the specific aesthetic of 32-bit era gaming. Mobile Production
: High-quality SoundFonts allow mobile devices to play complex MIDI files with a "cinematic" quality that default system sounds cannot match.
In conclusion, the Roland SC-88 Pro SoundFont is a testament to the enduring quality of Roland’s 90s engineering. By digitizing these sounds, the community ensures that the specific "color" of an era remains playable and relevant for new generations of musicians. specific download links for highly-rated SC-88 Pro soundfonts or a comparison with the official Roland Cloud VST?
HiDef (my 4GiB Roland SC-88Pro SoundFont) - Musical Artifacts
The Great Debate: Is There a "Perfect" SC88 Pro SoundFont?
Here is the uncomfortable truth: Roland never officially released an SC-88 Pro SoundFont.
Due to copyright and proprietary technology (their proprietary "Structure Adaptive Processing" and custom DSP chips), Roland kept their samples encrypted. Therefore, any Roland SC88 Pro SoundFont available online is reverse-engineered, user-sampled, or a conversion from other formats (like the Sondius-XG).
Option A: Windows (Direct)
Use CoolSoft VirtualMIDISynth. Install it, set it as your default Windows MIDI device, and load your SC-88 Pro SF2. Now, any game or app that plays MIDI (like DosBox or old games) will sound like genuine SC-88 Pro hardware.
What characterizes the SC-88 Pro sound
- Tone palette: warm, slightly bright PCM samples; lush synth pads; realistic acoustic pianos, strings, brass, and orchestral ensemble sounds; distinct GS drum/percussion mapping.
- Effects and processing: onboard chorus, reverb, multi-effects and tone-shaping that are essential to the “Sound Canvas” signature.
- Compatibility layers: General MIDI 1, General MIDI 2-like expansions, and Roland GS extensions (banked instruments and drum maps).
- Dynamic response: velocity layers and carefully tuned loop points for sustained instruments, but with hardware filter/envelope behavior that influences the perceived timbre beyond raw samples.
Part 8: Conclusion – Should You Download the SC-88 Pro SoundFont?
Yes – if you are a hobbyist, a retro gamer, a chiptune artist, or a bedroom producer chasing 90s nostalgia.
The Roland SC-88 Pro SoundFont is a time machine. It requires no paid subscriptions, no aging hardware, and no complex routing. With a 300 MB SF2 file and a free player like Sforzando, you can turn your 2026 gaming PC into a 1996 rack-mounted marvel.
Just remember: the magic isn't in the technical fidelity—it's in the character. That slightly-too-bright piano, that nasal saxophone, that synth bass that seems to bounce just right... that is the sound of a generation. And thanks to the dedication of anonymous samplers and SoundFont enthusiasts, that sound will never die.
Final Pro Tip: Always verify your SF2's source. Look for the "SC-88pro v1.2" by kode54 as your starting point. Then, load a MIDI of "Final Fantasy VII – Ahead on the Way" and prepare for a wave of nostalgia.
Do you have a favorite Roland SC-88 Pro memory or a different SoundFont recommendation? The legacy of the Sound Canvas lives on in every byte.
The year was 1996, and the digital air smelled like ozone and floppy disks. In a cramped bedroom studio, a young composer named Elias stared at a beige box: the Roland SC-88 Pro Go to product viewer dialog for this item.
. It was the pinnacle of the Sound Canvas line, the secret weapon behind the lush, MIDI-driven soundtracks of 90s RPGs.
Elias spent years meticulously layering its iconic "Finger Slap" bass and "Nylon Gtr" patches. But as the millennium turned, hardware grew heavy and software grew light. The
was destined for a dusty shelf—until the SoundFont revolution began. The Digital Preservation
Music preservationists and "SoundFont hunters" began a painstaking process. Using tools like Polyphone , they captured every nuance of the 's 1,117 tones.
The Sampling: Every note of the legendary "64VoicePiano" was recorded at multiple velocities to ensure the digital ghost felt as heavy as the physical keys.
The Mapping: Samples were converted into the .sf2 format, allowing a new generation to use the exact sounds of Final Fantasy or Touhou without owning the original rack-mounted unit. A Second Life
Decades later, Elias’s son found a file titled SC-88Pro_Complete.sf2. With a simple drag-and-drop into a modern DAW or Synthesia, the shimmering strings and punchy drums of the 90s filled the room again. The hardware was gone, but the "soul" of the
—captured in a few hundred megabytes—lived on, proving that in the world of MIDI, legendary sounds never truly die; they just get re-sampled.
The Roland SC-88 Pro is a legendary MIDI sound module released in 1996, famous for its 1,117 high-quality instrument patches and 42 drum kits. Because the original hardware is vintage, many creators have developed SoundFonts (SF2 files) to replicate its iconic GS (General Standard) sounds in modern digital audio workstations (DAWs) or MIDI players. 🎹 Popular SC-88 Pro SoundFonts
Several community-made SoundFonts aim to capture the specific "warmth" and "grit" of the SC-88 Pro hardware. HiDef (4GiB Roland SC-88Pro) : A massive, highly detailed SoundFont created by developer
stgiga. It is designed to be compatible with exotic Japanese MIDI files and supports XG mode. You can find this on Musical Artifacts. Tyroland (SC-8850/SC-88 Pro) The SC-88 Pro SoundFont faithfully recreates the classic
: Also by stgiga, this project has evolved over several years to support all patches from the newer SC-8850, which includes the 88 Pro's sound set. It is available on itch.io. Mr.Sanic's Roland SC-88 (Full Version)
: A more compact version (21.8 MB) compiled from the sounds of the official Roland Sound Canvas VST. It is General MIDI (GM) compatible and available on Musical Artifacts. JaZMan SF88 Roland Edition
: A commercial option (~1.6 GB) that focuses specifically on the SC-88 native mode sounds. 🛠️ Usage & Compatibility
SoundFonts allow you to play classic MIDI music (like DOS game soundtracks) with the authentic Roland tone without owning the $800+ physical unit.
Software Players: To use these files, you need a SoundFont player like BASSMIDI, CoolSoft VirtualMIDISynth, or a DAW plugin like Sforzando.
Mode Switching: While hardware units use button combinations to switch between GM, GS, and CM-64 modes, SoundFonts typically handle these via different bank mappings within the SF2 file Backwards Compatibility: The
hardware was fully compatible with the SC-88 and partially with the SC-55; high-quality SoundFonts like the 4GB HiDef version aim to maintain this hierarchy. ⚠️ Key Hardware Specs (for comparison)
If you are looking for the most "complete" sound, keep in mind what the original hardware provided: Voices: 1,117 patches. Drum Kits: 42 kits (38 unique). Polyphony: 64 voices.
Effects: Reverb, Chorus, Delay, and specialized EFX filters.
HiDef (my 4GiB Roland SC-88Pro SoundFont) - Musical Artifacts
Finding a high-quality Roland SC-88 Pro SoundFont typically involves looking for community-made .sf2 files that sample the original 1996 hardware or its official software successor. Top SoundFont Recommendations
HiDef (4GiB Roland SC-88Pro SoundFont): This is one of the most comprehensive community projects. It is a 4GB soundfont designed for high compatibility with MIDI files, including those that use specific SC-88 Pro effects and Japanese MIDI standards. It can be found on Musical Artifacts.
StrixSoundFont (SC-88Pro Compatible): Another popular massive soundfont (nearly 4GB) that aims for full compatibility with the SC-88 Pro. It is often used with the BASSMIDI driver for playback.
Tyroland: Developed by the same creator as the HiDef soundfont, this is a more recent (2026) release that supports all patches from the SC-8850 (the successor to the 88 Pro) and is available on itch.io.
Mr.Sanic’s SC-88 (Full Version): A lighter alternative (~22MB) compiled from the Roland Sound Canvas VA VST trial. While it is General MIDI compatible, it is less detailed than the multi-gigabyte versions. Official Alternative: Roland Sound Canvas VA
If you need 100% accuracy, Roland offers the Sound Canvas VA VST/AU plugin. Unlike SoundFonts, which are static samples, this official software emulates the internal filters and effects (reverb, chorus, delay) that made the original hardware unique. Many users prefer this over SoundFonts because it correctly handles GS System Exclusive (SysEx) messages used in vintage game soundtracks. Performance vs. Compatibility Community SoundFonts (.sf2) Roland Sound Canvas VA (VST) Cost Free (usually) Size Can be massive (up to 4GB+) Accuracy Good, but often lacks hardware filters High; includes authentic effects Compatibility Works in any SoundFont player Requires a DAW or VST host
Free MIDI Editor | Create & Edit MIDI Files Online - OpenMusic AI
The Roland SC-88 Pro is a legendary desktop synthesizer from the Sound Canvas series, released in 1996 as a major upgrade for composers and MIDI enthusiasts. While the original is hardware, high-quality SoundFonts (SF2)—like the 4GB "HiDef" version—replicate its distinct 90s sonic character for modern digital audio workstations (DAWs) and retro gaming. Core Specifications of the SC-88 Pro
The hardware set the benchmark for the "Pro" Sound Canvas experience with these key features:
Massive Sound Library: Includes 1,117 instrument patches and 45 drum kits.
Multi-Timbral Power: Supports 32 MIDI channels and 64-voice polyphony, allowing it to function like two separate modules (A and B) simultaneously.
Compatibility: Fully supports General MIDI (GM) and Roland GS standards, with unofficial support for Yamaha XG and backwards compatibility for older SC-55 and SC-88 models.
Onboard Effects: Features 64 types of insertion effects (EFX), alongside standard reverb, chorus, and delay, which are critical for its specific "polished" sound. The SC-88 Pro SoundFont (SF2) Experience
Since the original hardware is bulky and vintage, many users turn to SoundFonts to achieve the "Sound Canvas sound" in software:
High-Fidelity Rips: Developers like stgiga have created massive libraries, such as the HiDef Roland SC-88Pro SoundFont on Musical Artifacts, which aims for 1:1 compatibility with exotic Japanese MIDI files.
Usage: These SF2 files are commonly used with players like FluidSynth, BASSMIDI, or within DOSBox to enhance the music of classic PC games.
The "VSC" Alternative: Roland also offers an official VST version called the Roland Sound Canvas VA, which some users prefer for its official engine, though it is a paid product. Key Controls & Functions (Hardware Reference)
If you are using the hardware or a highly accurate emulation, these functions are essential: Roland SC-88 Pro: A Classic Desktop Synth! - Sound Profile
Overview — Roland SC-88 Pro soundfont
The Roland SC-88 Pro is a rackmount module from the late 1990s in the Sound Canvas family; it expanded on the SC-88 with higher polyphony, additional PCM waveforms, and refined tone mapping used widely in game, MIDI, and music-production workflows. A “soundfont” in modern terms is a sample-based instrument container (commonly SF2/SFZ) that packages multisampled PCM data and mapping information so software samplers can reproduce a hardware tone module’s sounds. When people seek a “Roland SC-88 Pro soundfont” they want to reproduce the SC-88 Pro’s characteristic MIDI General MIDI (GM/GS) tones and additional Roland extensions inside modern DAWs, trackers, or softsynth hosts.
Below is a practical, structured guide: what the SC-88 Pro soundset sounds like, how it maps to modern formats, how to obtain or build usable soundfonts, legal and technical caveats, and actionable steps to get SC-88 Pro–accurate MIDI playback on current systems.
Step 2: The Source
Finding a high-quality SC-88 Pro SoundFont requires a bit of digging. Look for files often labeled "SC-88 Pro v2.0" or "SC-88 Pro NDS." Pro Tip: Always respect copyright. These sound sets are technically intellectual property of Roland. Use them for educational, preservation, or personal hobbyist purposes.
1. SC-88Pro_128MB_v2.4 (by "shocky" / Qexl)
- Size: ~128 MB
- Completeness: Full General MIDI 2 (GM2) + Roland GS + SC-88 Pro exclusive sounds
- Quality: Excellent — sampled directly from a real SC-88 Pro
- Where to find: Musical Artifacts, Pleasurize Music forum, or Internet Archive
Technical details for accurate reproduction
- Bank/Program mapping: SC-88 Pro uses GS bank select (CC 0/32) plus program changes. Ensure your MIDI host sends correct bank MSB/LSB for variants beyond GM.
- Drum channel: channel 10 (MIDI) uses a GS drum map; map your SF2’s drum samples to standard drum note numbers (35–81 etc.).
- Polyphony: SC-88 Pro had more polyphony than earlier units; ensure your sampler has enough voices per channel to avoid note-stealing artifacts.
- Effects: authentic reverb and chorus modeled by the unit significantly affect perceived timbre — emulate these in your DAW for best results.
- Looping: carefully set loop crossfades for sustained instruments to avoid audible clicks or synthetic repetition; preserve original loop lengths to retain character.